Data shows college degrees lead to better jobs. Is Arizona making that clear to students?
Download mp3 (11.58 MB)A new report from a national education group looks at how states are doing to link education and opportunity.
The State Opportunity Index from the Strada Education Foundation finds Arizona doing well in some of the metrics examined — and less well in others. Among those metrics: quality coaching, affordability, work-based learning and clear outcomes — accurate information about employment after school.
Paul Perrault, senior vice president of community impact and learning at the Helios Education Foundation, joined The Show to break down the results and what they mean for Arizona is Paul Perrault.
Full interview
MARK BRODIE: And Paul, let me ask you first off about your broad takeaways from this data. What do you think of what they have to say about the state?
PAUL PERRAULT: Well, at the broad high level view, I was really impressed that it aligns to so much work that we've been trying to do at Helios and it's been identifying the value of education, especially higher education for the state of Arizona and for those students that are gonna be graduating pretty soon. And so higher level, that's the important takeaway from this is that we have a good system where students can have high level of return on investment for going to college.
BRODIE: So when you dig down into it, were there areas of concern or were you still pretty pleased with, with the data that you saw?
PERRAULT: I would say, there's always areas that you can improve upon, right? You know, they had they really focused on five measures and, and I think the two areas that we could really improve upon are clear outcomes. So letting students, especially as they're finishing high school and going to college know those career paths, you know, what, what does a job as an electrician pay? What does a job as a teacher pay and really letting the students know what those jobs are going to be and, and how they achieve those and what kind of education and that comes through quality coaching, which is back to tutors and mentors, and counselors both in high school and in college to understand what are the courses that you need to take to be prepared to go into accounting or finance?
And those are two areas that we really can improve upon. In fact, Arizona is always the 49th or 50th and the amount of K through 12 counselors compared to students. So we should be thinking about that if we really want to improve that index even more, how do we make sure students and those moving into college know the opportunities and the pathways to get there.
BRODIE: So you mentioned return on investment. And this particular study found a 76% positive ROI for either a bachelor's or associates degree, sort of combining those together. How does that jive with the work that you're doing in terms of really trying to make the case that it is worth it to go to college and trying to get bachelor's degree or some kind of post-secondary degree to the level that the state has said it wants in the next several years?
PERRAULT: Yeah. The last year and a half Helios and our partners at (Education Forward Arizona) really have been working around this everything to gain campaign and it, it came out of research that we looked at, at the value of college and what you could make over your lifetime. And we looked at it with a, a Class of 2122 cohort and for those students that are getting a Bachelor's degrees, you're going to make about $1.6 million over your lifetime compared to somebody that only has a high school diploma. And it was about $900,000 for a student that would have an associate's degree.
So when you think about those opportunities, which you're going to have over time being able to buy a house, not having a job disappear or go to automation, it really aligned quite well with the work that we've been doing and our partners have been doing to really improve the the overall post-secondary at post secondary attainment rate in Arizona.
BRODIE: One of the other metrics that this data looked at was sort of the, the relationship between the types of courses that are offered in higher education in a state and the types of jobs that are available in that state in terms of, is there a good match between the type of training that students can get and the type of job in that particular place that they can get. What stood out to you about what, what this found?
PERRAULT: Well, I think there's a, a couple of things that stand out. Number one, it shows that the economy in Arizona continues to grow and we have a lot of opportunities here. And number two, that our colleges and university are doing a really good job right now of matching the types of courses, the types of degrees with the jobs that Arizona is going to need in the future.
It also kind of connects with number two, work that we've been doing with ASU in Helios around the Arizona education and workforce visualization, which really looks at the jobs in the future, looks at what's going to be automated, looks at the kind of courses that you need to take and shows us that we're gonna need 500,000 more degrees by 2030. But it shows that we're on track in getting there if we can zero in and focus on the types, right types of courses, the right types of degrees for Arizona.
BRODIE: Do you find that universities and community colleges are talking to folks in business sort of in the private sector to make sure that there is alignment between the types of programs and courses and degrees that schools are offering and the types of jobs that are either there or that folks expect to be coming online in the near future?
PERRAULT: Well, I think we're seeing that more and more the business community, the colleges’ and universities’ philanthropy — like Helios Education Foundation and our partners at Ed Forward — really convening people to come together to think about those jobs of the future. And I would say in the last 34 years, it's especially true as more organizations are looking at data and using data that drive decisions.
BRODIE: So I want to ask you also about affordability because that was one of the areas where Arizona actually did pretty well. You know, there are some some categories where Arizona was sort of in the developing or the foundational stage was sort of at the bottom of these metrics. In affordability, Arizona was pretty high in terms of being advanced. I would imagine that's pretty significant when students and their families are thinking about, OK, I'm interested in going to community college or college, can I afford it?
PERRAULT: Right. And II I couldn't agree more affordability was one of those key factors and, and really Arizona came out as the highest category of advanced and really what that means is that those graduating from a college or university in Arizona are able to make enough money over time to pay off any kind of debt within 10 years. And that really is key is we're not having students have to borrow $100,000 to go to school and then carry that debt for the rest of their lives. And so we have that opportunity and that's really where the business community comes in in philanthropy as well. We like having low tax rates in Arizona. We like having those opportunities. And right now, our educational system is doing a really good job of making it affordable for students that are graduating in Arizona to go to college and then stay in Arizona and have a job here.
BRODIE: So for some of those areas in which Arizona didn't score as well, what has to happen to bring those numbers up? What has to happen to improve those?
PERRAULT: Yeah, I think we have to have some real conversations around education and how we add more funding for education, especially around counselors and how we create pathways and our, we show more clear data pathways of what are the job opportunities that's that are happening in Arizona. What do you get if you go to college compared to, what do you, what will you have as an opportunity If you only have high school. I would say those are the two big things that we need to really start focused on as well. And then more as we saw from the report to a little bit more work based learning. So how can people have internships, how can people learn on the job so that they can understand? Maybe I want to go in this job, maybe I want to do this. And I think if we really start focusing on those three areas, we see that ROI even skyrocket more than it is right now.
BRODIE: Is that a tough conversation to have when you're talking about increased funding for education, given where the state is right now in terms of its finances?
PERRAULT: It's always a tough conversation when you think about, you know, increasing funding, where does that money come from back to the return on investment? If we have more students getting better jobs, making more money, that's gonna lead to increased lifetime earnings for those students, that's gonna mean that they're paying more into the tax system so we can have better hospitals, better roads, better parks and really better cost of living for them and, and, and being able to retire and have those things too. So, you know, there's always a balance that you have to look at and I think if we look at that return on investment and what it will mean for individuals, but also for the state of Arizona as a whole, investing in education is a great opportunity.
BRODIE: Interesting. All right, that is Paul Perrault, senior vice president of community impact and learning with the Helios Education Foundation. Paul, thanks a lot. I appreciate it.
PERRAULT: Thank you so much, Mark.
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