Councilmembers push back against federal supervision of Phoenix police
Download mp3 (13.19 MB)The city of Phoenix is asking the U.S. Justice Department to end its investigation into the Phoenix Police Department without making them subject to court supervision.
The Justice Department began investigating the department more than two years ago amid concerns about discrimination, use of excessive force, unfair treatment of the homeless and allegations of officers retaliating against protesters.
Now, that investigation is nearing its end — and many expect the feds to present the department with what’s called a "consent decree" — which means it would be under the supervision of a monitor — a costly proposition with no definitive end.
But city leaders say they are unwilling to give control to federal authorities, and in a recent letter to the department, asked them to end the investigation through a different kind of agreement.
Kevin Robinson is one of those leaders, a member of the Phoenix City Council, a former Phoenix police officer and a professor in Arizona State University's School of Criminology and Criminal Justice. He told The Show that his biggest concern is that the city is being asked to agree to something without having seen the results of the investigation.
KEVIN ROBINSON: I think that's unfair. I think it's only right that we get an opportunity to see the substance of their investigation.
LAUREN GILGER: Let's back up and talk a little bit about what you make of this investigation. Like, do you agree there were problems within the Phoenix Police Department that merited the DOJ coming in?
ROBINSON: Well, I, I know there were, there were a great deal of concerns by the public and that in and of itself should concern any law enforcement agency. If we are not living up to, at least by, you know, the public standards, we need to pay attention to those concerns. And so I think that's what has happened. There was a human cry about the use of force being used by the Phoenix Police Department. There were some civil rights violations with regard to people's property being taken. Those concerns were raised. So there was a lot, a lot of smoke and so the Department of Justice, by my standards, they've come in to see if there's any fire, see what's going on there, see if there's a pattern in practice. And so I understand why they are here. And I would like to see before we sign anything. I'd like to see the substance of their investigation. I just want to see what they have found and whether or not, you know, quite honestly it's relevant.
GILGER: Have other cities who have been in the same position been able to do that. I mean, has, have they ever gotten that kind of request filled by the DOJ?
ROBINSON: Not that I am aware of. But what you have to remember is Phoenix is different from all the other cities that have entered into consent decrees. Phoenix is governed with the mayor and council obviously, but it's a city management mayor, council form of government. So the council itself, there's, you know, nine of us, eight council members and the mayor, we need to vote on these decisions. Other cities where you've seen it happen in Louisville and Baltimore and a few places like that, they have strong mayor setups. So the mayor makes that determination on what they should or shouldn't do. And that's, that's what happens in those situations.
GILGER: So what do you anticipate is coming here from the DOJ? You talked about a lot of smoke, maybe fire. But I mean, even the, the interim chief of the Police Department has said that the results of this are likely going to be really tough.
ROBINSON: I'm sure they will be, but let's please, you know, that's what I've been saying all along. Let's look at what they have found. Let's sit down with the DOJ and discuss their findings and how they arrived at the point they arrived at. And I say that based on the fact that I've read through several other consent decrees in several other cities and police departments. So having done that, I noticed in one and I believe it was the Louisville Police Department, they highlighted pretty egregious behavior on the part of the police officers within the Police Department. And they highlighted that they made a big deal out of it. But what they never said, not a single mention of this in their report, they never mentioned that the Police Department upon learning about that, that egregious behavior, and in some cases hours after it happened, fired those individuals. And that wasn't in the report. I think what we, I would love to be able to see us do is sit down with the DOJ with their investigation and to let's work through it, explain these things to us. If there's stuff there, let's deal with it. I'm not saying throw the whole thing out, don't come knocking or anything along those lines. I am saying, let's take a hard look at what it is that you have, and let's discuss what your findings are and let's make sure everything is in line.
GILGER: I mean, the Phoenix Police Department has been able to work with the, the DOJ investigators as they've been in the department for several years now, right? As they've done this have, I'm sure they've been able to answer questions, right?
ROBINSON: They have. The Phoenix Police Department and the city of Phoenix have both provided the DOJ with a great deal of information, everything they've asked for.
GILGER: Let me ask you about what's happened in other cities that have entered into consent decrees with the DOJ as well. There are often concerns about how long they last, and the amount of money across jurisdictions as well. Are you worried about that?
ROBINSON: I am, very much so. And I think former Sheriff Paul Penzone really made it a point when he decided not to run for re-election and resign a year early. He talked about having to pay for office space and a host of other things for the folks who are overseeing his department. They were never there half the time, and that's not a way to have proper oversight. You look at how many literally hundreds of millions of dollars that the county and we as taxpayers have spent on that. I just think that's wrong, and it did not give then Sheriff Penzone the opportunity to deal with things as he saw fit. So my position is, you know, when you look at these DOJ investigations and I'm not saying we shouldn't have them. I'm not saying that I'm saying that let's sit down and discuss what your findings are and what are we going to do. Because the amount of money that it will take and we will spend it. You know, if this is what happens, the city of Phoenix ends up spending literally hundreds of thousands of dollars. And I realize that may not sit well with some folks who want to see this happen, they want to have oversight, but I hope they consider what the unintended consequences are going to be. Because we will then have to make decisions, I say we, the mayor and the council, we will have to make decisions on some budgetary issues and who's going to be impacted by that.
GILGER: So, let's talk about the reforms that the Phoenix Police Department has said it will make on its own. I mean, essentially the department and, and many of you here are sort of saying "we'll do this ourselves, we'll fix many of these programs, we don't want to pay for this kind of expensive oversight." It doesn't mean it won't also be expensive. And why do you think? I guess that the DOJ should kind of trust you on this?
ROBINSON: Well, I would say look at the history of the Phoenix Police Department. I spent 36.5 years with Phoenix. So I had an opportunity to understand how we worked, and I will tell you over the vast majority of my career, Phoenix is always held up as a model Police Department. I don't believe that that past should be disregarded completely. The Phoenix Police Department was the first major city police department that outfitted the entire patrol division with tasers. And when that happened, our shootings were reduced by something like if I remember correctly. Well, over 40%, 50% from the previous year, there is incident after example, after example, where the Phoenix Police Department chartered a new course in a lot of areas and did things before anyone ever asked us to.
GILGER: What would you say though, to those who are skeptical of that in the community, people who feel like they have been victims of police, you know, misconduct. I mean, do you think that that's enough for them?
ROBINSON: It may not be. And, you know, I, I think I can honestly say, I understand exactly where they are coming from. I really do. I understand their skepticism. I understand any concerns that they're going to have. But I would also ask them to put their faith in folks like myself, the mayor, other council members, the police chief, and I know with some that may, you know, ring hollow with them. But these are all folks who are committed to public service, what we have to remember or what I would tell those folks is, police officers have to make decisions in split seconds and it's easier for us to sit back and, you know, sort of Monday morning quarterback, their actions when we're not necessarily right there in the moment. And I'm not saying that means every single use of force or anything like that gets a pass. I'm not saying that I'm just saying, I think we have to take everything into consideration.
GILGER: All right, we'll leave it there for now. That is Phoenix City Council Member Kevin Robinson, professor at ASU's Watts College and the School of Criminology and Criminal Justice as well, and also former Phoenix police officer. Thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate you taking the time.
ROBINSON: Thank you very much. I appreciate you inviting me.
